Curse

Duly Thankful · Oct 05, 2005, 09:15 AM // 09:15

“Lets go play GvG!”

The words came across the guild channel and raised a spark of interest. Why not? After all, I wasn’t exactly a noob at this PvP business. I had accumulated 4k of experience in the PUG arenas (well all right – it had taken me three months of occasional effort, but that would be enough surely?).

So we gathered in the Guild hall. While waiting for the real business to start, a few questions and ideas were kicked around.

“Whats this ‘rank’ thing on my stats? Mine is zero. Is that good?”
“No idea – where do you get to see your stats?”
“OK, listen up – we need tactics and a target caller. Caller had better be a warrior. Any volunteers?”

Deathly silence. A few cautious enquiries about what target calling is. We kick the level 6 warrior from the group and suggest he make a PvP character. This leaves us one short, so we take a healing henchman.

“Never mind about tactics then – just kick their butts.”

We use the automatic option and the computer makes an appropriate match. The other team is ranked 51. Time to go and uphold the honour of the Guild!

We gather after the movie clip. (“What was that?” “Dunno, I always skip movies.” “Yeah, me too”). The match starts! No-one knows quite what to do. We receive a message saying that the enemy has captured a tower and will receive a morale boost. “Hey! Have we got a tower?” “No idea” “Doesn’t seem fair – make a bug report to Anet when we finish”.

At this point we haven’t even seen an opponent, then we find the way out of the Guild hall. There they are! Lets annihilate them! “Remember targets!” “Never mind that crap, just kill them!”

So we go forth to battle. Being PvP experienced, my monk is a combination of heal and protect. So I fire off Aegis and look to see where the warriors are so I can use Healing Seed. There they are! On opposite sides of the battle. I use Healing Seed on one and find myself attacked by an axe wielding maniac who is about 8 feet tall and has a severe case of over-active reflexes. I barely have time to blink before I am inspecting the ground with my nose. Hmmm…

I wonder if anyone brought a res signet. I look around. My team are falling like flies. So far one minute 30 seconds has passed. Shortly after, and we are all dead. While we lie there wondering why we haven’t lost, a miracle happens and we are all of us resurrected! No problem! I might have 15% DP, but this time I will be more careful. I look up. TWO axe wielding monstrosities. I am dead again. Our base is under attack (we have a base?). After examining the ground under my nose for a while, I realise one of our team is still alive! Way to go team! It’s the healing henchman. He (she?) is stronger and more experienced than any of us. Humiliating really.

Within short order, I have 60% DP, as do most of the team and the Guild Lord we didn’t know we had is dead. We lose. The opposition are extremely polite (probably laughing too hard to throw insults) and wish us luck in our next battle. We retire to lick our wounds.

We try again. And again. And again. I spend the best part of two hours jumping up and down in my chair in rage at what is happening, or watching the screen with disbelief. I’m dead! AGAIN!!! I hurl abuse at the cat for walking in front of the monitor, and snarl at the wife (BIG mistake). I change tactics and take Pacifism against warriors. Lightning bolts slam me down. Chemists say we are all made up from elements. Well they are right and I am thoroughly elementalised. Repeatedly.

We come up against Necros. Is there a record for the fastest death in GvG? I think I just broke it. I take Mend Ailment and Remove Hex. Each (slowly) removes a condition or hex. I think I have 8 on me all at once. I get to know the ground very well, as I spend 95% of my time lying on it. I believe at one point I was killed by a stone pillar. I certainly ran into it often enough trying to escape the murderous attention of the enemy. I decide that being a monk is a bad idea as you might just as well paint ‘TARGET’ on your chest.

As I slowly emerge from shock, I come to the conclusion that my future in GvG (and probably all forms of PvP) is that of a corpse. It’s the one thing I am truly good at. Our team splits up, most of us barely on speaking terms any more. As a method of bringing people together, this was an utter failure. Is there a Beginners Section where we could learn? I doubt if we could play well enough to get in it anyway. I cancel my plans for Taiwan.

I think I will stick to PvE and farming. It’s a lot more fun and could prevent cat deaths and a divorce

Numa Pompilius · Oct 05, 2005, 10:08 AM // 10:08

LOL!

I have a sad story too:

I was out adventuring, trying to get to Galrath, and I find this town called "Temple of Ages". People are getting groups together to go to the underworld, which I assume is a dungeon, and I decide that I should check it out.

So I talk to one avatar, and he wants 1K to transport me to the underworld. So I give it to him. I'll just pop in, run around, have a little look at the place.

I find myself in the underworld, all alone. Hm, the mobs circling me sure are high-level, better be careful. Hm, there's a ghost with a green exclamation mark, let's check out what he wants... mobs! OK, let's see what you've got, mr weird-looking minotaur!

<THWAP!>
<ARRRGGGHH!!!!>

<CLICK TO RETURN TO OUTPOST>

<me staring in shell-shocked disbelief at the screen>

This my first, and to date only, visit to the underworld lasted about fifteen seconds.

EDIT: Oh, and I completely support your idea of a beginners section for PvP. I get my ass handed to me, badly, in PvP too, and I'm sure playing against other, hm, less dedicated PvP players would make PvP'ing more enjoyable. For me.

lishi · Oct 05, 2005, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

LOL!

I have a sad story too:

I was out adventuring, trying to get to Galrath, and I find this town called "Temple of Ages". People are getting groups together to go to the underworld, which I assume is a dungeon, and I decide that I should check it out.

So I talk to one avatar, and he wants 1K to transport me to the underworld. So I give it to him. I'll just pop in, run around, have a little look at the place.

I find myself in the underworld, all alone. Hm, the mobs circling me sure are high-level, better be careful. Hm, there's a ghost with a green exclamation mark, let's check out what he wants... mobs! OK, let's see what you've got, mr weird-looking minotaur!

<THWAP!>
<ARRRGGGHH!!!!>

<CLICK TO RETURN TO OUTPOST>

<me staring in shell-shocked disbelief at the screen>

This my first, and to date only, visit to the underworld lasted about fifteen seconds.

happened to me with FoW

sandstorm87 · Oct 05, 2005, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

LOL!

I have a sad story too:

I was out adventuring, trying to get to Galrath, and I find this town called "Temple of Ages". People are getting groups together to go to the underworld, which I assume is a dungeon, and I decide that I should check it out.

So I talk to one avatar, and he wants 1K to transport me to the underworld. So I give it to him. I'll just pop in, run around, have a little look at the place.

I find myself in the underworld, all alone. Hm, the mobs circling me sure are high-level, better be careful. Hm, there's a ghost with a green exclamation mark, let's check out what he wants... mobs! OK, let's see what you've got, mr weird-looking minotaur!

<THWAP!>
<ARRRGGGHH!!!!>

<CLICK TO RETURN TO OUTPOST>

<me staring in shell-shocked disbelief at the screen>

This my first, and to date only, visit to the underworld lasted about fifteen seconds.

EDIT: Oh, and I completely support your idea of a beginners section for PvP. I get my ass handed to me, badly, in PvP too, and I'm sure playing against other, hm, less dedicated PvP players would make PvP'ing more enjoyable. For me.

Hehe had the same thing in uw
was attacked by a couple of monsters
didn't know what to expect all by myself

Sekkira · Oct 05, 2005, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Look up Xen Of Onslaught [XoO]. If you're over 18 (I think there's a few more requirements), they'll get you into PvP in this game and teach you the basics to the real tactics.

aron searle · Oct 05, 2005, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Yup, i had a similare gvg experiance.

What i would recomend is trying to find another guild who will do an unranked arragned match with, so they can help teach you the basics, not easy to do that though.

nice post as well, had me chuckling in recogniction

Shinsei · Oct 05, 2005, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Pay attention to what's making you lose and learn. Here's a hint: “Never mind about tactics then – just kick their butts.” - is not a good strategy.

I don't support a beginners section for PvP. Newbeginners can learn from losing to the best. It's just a matter of paying attention and having the will to improve yourself.

aron searle · Oct 05, 2005, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Pay attention to what's making you lose and learn. Here's a hint: “Never mind about tactics then – just kick their butts.” - is not a good strategy.

I don't support a beginners section for PvP. Newbeginners can learn from losing to the best. It's just a matter of paying attention and having the will to improve yourself.

Theres always someone that has to get on their high horse, even when the post is blatenly light hearted and well written.

shall i get you a ladder?

Akimb0 · Oct 05, 2005, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Theres always someone that has to get on their high horse, even when the post is blatenly light hearted and well written.

shall i get you a ladder?

He is on no "high horse" what he says is perfectly correct. You wont learn unless you play. Theres only so much someone can tell you.

Shinsei · Oct 05, 2005, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Theres always someone that has to get on their high horse, even when the post is blatenly light hearted and well written.

shall i get you a ladder?

So because his post is light hearted and well written, I can't explain why losing doesn't mean you have to give up? Everyone loses, and most people know how to learn from those losses. If you lose while running the "Let's just smash faces with our random builds, no tactics and no communication against organized teams!" strategy, you shouldn't be surprised. Learn from your loss. Organize your guild. Develope tactics and strategies, and actually try to win. You can start by reading about the GvG scenario (such as the win conditions) so you guys actually know what to do when you join the game.

I believe the observer mode will eliminate most of the "we have no clue what the hell's going on here" teams, whereas the beginners section would just create more of them. If all you do is play with teams that attack warriors first, how much better are you going to get?

Sorry, but I fail to see how that ladder would be of any use to me. It seems like you're the one trying to step above. Try again.

aron searle · Oct 05, 2005, 11:46 AM // 11:46

whatever

I saw this as a post of someone telling of there experiance in a light hearted manner, and recounting there mistakes. which i think you completly missed.

Asplode · Oct 05, 2005, 11:46 AM // 11:46

My first time in the underworld, first weekend, my level 18 e/me and my level 17 w/mo guildy. He thought it'd be safe to bring life bond for me, and we felt pretty confident after beating up all the mobs in the surrounding area with ease. Anyway, we decided to make the 1plat investment for some good XP and perhaps some good loot, which was at the time maybe 1/5 of our total earnings. Hop in, the place looks awfully dreary, Chris casts life bond on me, and he carefully aggros one bladed aatxe. It runs right past him, for me, in the middle of casting fireball. One hit. We're both down to half health. Two hits, we're both dead simultaneously. Blasted life bond >.>

Shinsei · Oct 05, 2005, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

whatever

I saw this as a post of someone telling of there experiance in a light hearted manner, and recounting there mistakes. which i think you completly missed.

I saw this as a post of someone complaining about how unfriendly GvG is to newbeginners, and how it broke his guild up, causing him to not want to PvP again anytime soon, which I think you completely missed. Last 2 paragraphs:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duly Thankful

As I slowly emerge from shock, I come to the conclusion that my future in GvG (and probably all forms of PvP) is that of a corpse. It’s the one thing I am truly good at. Our team splits up, most of us barely on speaking terms any more. As a method of bringing people together, this was an utter failure. Is there a Beginners Section where we could learn? I doubt if we could play well enough to get in it anyway. I cancel my plans for Taiwan.

I think I will stick to PvE and farming. It’s a lot more fun and could prevent cat deaths and a divorce

Are we done analysing his post now?

aron searle · Oct 05, 2005, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

I saw this as a post of someone complaining about how unfriendly GvG is to newbeginners, and how it broke his guild up, causing him to not want to PvP again anytime soon, which I think you completely missed. Last 2 paragraphs:

Yes you’re completely right.

Everyone should like pvp, and they should just learn to play.

Or we could just accept that it’s not for everyone.

Sorry if im getting on your back here, but I really didn’t see the point of you saying

Quote:

Pay attention to what's making you lose and learn. Here's a hint: “Never mind about tactics then – just kick their butts.” - is not a good strategy.

I think the op realized that and made a funny post about it. Maybe im getting a little trollish (is that a word), but i dont see the point of your post except to bellitle someone.

(edit - im going ot leave this now, as i dont want to hijack the post

)

Shinsei · Oct 05, 2005, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Yes you’re completely right.

Everyone should like pvp, and they should just learn to play.

Or we could just accept that it’s not for everyone.

So we're twisting words now huh? That's not my point. My point is that if you lose at your first, second or maybe 185th attempt at PvP'ing, that doesn't mean you should just give up and claim that PvP is not for you. The OP made it clear that they weren't even attempting to learn to play as a team, and especially since they gave up that quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

I think the op realized that and made a funny post about it. Maybe im getting a little trollish (is that a word), but i dont see the point of your post except to bellitle someone.

I'm bellitling someone by telling them not to give up because they lost? Boy, I'd hate to have you as moral support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

(edit - im going ot leave this now, as i dont want to hijack the post

)

Smartest thing you've said today.

Kampfkeks · Oct 05, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

A well, nevermind him/her. Just another Elitist roaming this board. There really should be a beginners section in PVP. Sure thing you learn through loosing.
BUT
Getting crushed in under a minute won't do you any good in terms of learning. And motivation gets a BIG UGLY hit at the bulls eye. The loosing battles you're learning best from are the ones that are lost only by a small edge. This way you actually have TIME to realize your mistakes and you'll know them instant.
Just eating dirt within seconds... too fast to even notice which spells they all fired upon you. Yeah... that's gonna help. Suuuure... thing.

The elitists should at least be honest. When the older players (in terms of time playing guildwars) started... there were no elitists. Everyone was on an equal level and that is why they all managed to learn a lot of things. As time went by... more and more newcomers came and it became harder and harder and even more harder to get started. Now we are at a point the Guildwars System forces Newcomer guilds against Top Notch Top Ten Guilds.

Problem a)
How fair is that?

Problem b)
Dead in seconds. Too fast to learn anything unless you're videotaping it.. which again isn't a thing for every PC.

Problem c)
Motivation is screwed. Losing and losing and losing yet another time won't do any good for the teams motivation. Sure some hardcore players will keep up and keep on losing but most will just give up.

Though i know this is useless but... do the elitists now see the horse they are on? If only the hardcore players are allowed to have fun in a game this is creating a society of rude asshats with attitude problems. Ooops.. i just described Guildwars in that sentence. We HAVE a community of rude asshats with attittude problems and elitists swarming the realms like locusts.

Shinsei · Oct 05, 2005, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks

A well, nevermind him/her. Just another Elitist roaming this board. There really should be a beginners section in PVP. Sure thing you learn through loosing.
BUT
Getting crushed in under a minute won't do you any good in terms of learning. And motivation gets a BIG UGLY hit at the bulls eye. The loosing battles you're learning best from are the ones that are lost only by a small edge. This way you actually have TIME to realize your mistakes and you'll know them instant.
Just eating dirt within seconds... too fast to even notice which spells they all fired upon you. Yeah... that's gonna help. Suuuure... thing.

First of all, if you're calling me an elitist, I'd like you to back that up. Why am I an elitist in your eyes and what makes you think that? Is it because I don't constantly lose? Is it because I'm giving advice to a losing team? Is it because the little guild tag I wear is half known? You really need to lay off the group generalizations and think logical for a second.

In GvG, you can't lose under a minute. You have plenty of time while dead or while not in the middle of the battle to take a look at their team. NPC's in GvG pose a threat, and guilds don't just steamroll castles in point o seconds. Pay attention to their team when you know you'll eventually lose.

How many monks are they running? What's their secondaries? How does there offense look? Is the majority of their build 1 primary class? And if so, what skills are they using that they all have in common? If not, how are the classes spread out? Are they denying energy? Are they stacking hexes? Are they spiking?

Then you can start thinking about positioning. Is there a reason why their monks are way in the back? Is there a reason why their warriors don't run out of healing range? Where are the offensive casters positioning themselves? Are all 8 of them there? Do they have a guy running flags, or maybe someone on the side abusing your NPC's?

Then you can think about the counters. How can we build an ideal amount of monks to provide a decent defense against the kind of teams we face? How can we build an ideal amount of offense that can provide a decent amount of damage and shutdown against the kind of teams we face? Can we build units that can support the offense to be more effective, or can we build units to provide the defense with more resources to work with? How can we combine the 2, so that unit is most effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks

The elitists should at least be honest. When the older players (in terms of time playing guildwars) started... there were no elitists. Everyone was on an equal level and that is why they all managed to learn a lot of things. As time went by... more and more newcomers came and it became harder and harder and even more harder to get started. Now we are at a point the Guildwars System forces Newcomer guilds against Top Notch Top Ten Guilds.

I agree that the players who were there from the beginning helped eachother grow and expand, and created the competition we know today. However, I disagree with you that new players are being held back by the more experienced. Ofcourse we play to win, but how does that hurt them? If anything, it pushes them to the level we're at faster than the way we got there. Are you even aware of some of the things top guilds are doing to help newbeginners? Do you know why most if not all top guilds strongly support observer mode? Do you have any clue what's being talked about and discussed on Weapon of Choice radio? Ever bothered to ask questions on IRC? I think not.

One of the most talked about discussions within the most experienced guilds is how we can help to inform the PvP community better, so the game can see more competition. My guild especially has concerned itself with doing that, such as organizing Team Arena runs and even creating team-iq.net , a forum to help those particularly interested in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks

Problem a)
How fair is that?

Problem b)
Dead in seconds. Too fast to learn anything unless you're videotaping it.. which again isn't a thing for every PC.

Problem c)
Motivation is screwed. Losing and losing and losing yet another time won't do any good for the teams motivation. Sure some hardcore players will keep up and keep on losing but most will just give up.

Though i know this is useless but... do the elitists now see the horse they are on? If only the hardcore players are allowed to have fun in a game this is creating a society of rude asshats with attitude problems. Ooops.. i just described Guildwars in that sentence. We HAVE a community of rude asshats with attittude problems and elitists swarming the realms like locusts.

Your first 2 problems, as I have already explained are irrelevant. Problem C however, I can see how losing can hurt a team's moral, but when getting into a competetive activity, one should always be prepared to lose. It happens in every competetive environment, and if you let losing peal you down, you're certainly not ready for challenges.

And no, I don't see myself sitting on any horse. If I had just began playing this game on a competetive level a week ago, I'd probably have just as much fun competing with the right people, against the top guilds. I'd lose, but I'd learn how to win. It's never constant losing unless you simply lack the self respect to pull yourself back up.

Duly Thankful · Oct 05, 2005, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Please guys - I wrote this as has been said, in a light-hearted and hopefully mildly amusing manner. I am well aware of the best way to learn, so lets not go down to flaming each other. I know I am hopeless at PvP, I always have been, right back to the days of text-based MUDS. The sight of my Leroy character has always brought tears of joy to the eyes of the opposition, but I will continue to try and improve, however slowly!

SJG · Oct 05, 2005, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duly Thankful

“Remember targets!” “Never mind that crap, just kill them!”

Let me get this straight, you carried on after this?

Crazy, that's a recipe for death even in PvE against unthinking automata.

Gwenhywar · Oct 05, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Duly Thankful - wonderfully written post, I was laughing so hard

I'm mainly playing monk too, so that reminded me lots about my early days in 8v8 PvP.

I am also in a guild that had no clue about GvGs when we started them, but we did some unrated matches for some experience with no stress involved, went on tours around various islands to familiarize ourselves, and read some on GvG strategies and builds, then tried to make our own. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose ... especially when the wonderful matchup system keeps teaming you up with much higher ranked opponents

. Overall, it's not so bad and not hopeless for sure - just requires some practice and a bit more strategy & coordination than just "let's kick their ass"

.